This is not meant to establish an argument, but simply an opinion and a point of view. That being said, I would also appreciate it being read in its entirity prior to any particular comments.
I've always said as much despite the fact that I paricipated in them myself (and enjoyed myself I might add), but Carch was correct in many ways when he criticized the nature of raiding. I believe that is why his comments always seemed so much more particularly poignant to me, if not somewhat more biting.
While I readily embraced raiding and I believe I did a sufficient job of it, I've come to a few realizations slowly and steadily along the way: I realized that I've begun spending more and more time away from my wife and my friends, and also from other endeavors both in the video game world and the real world that I enjoyed. I know that I could simply cut time off, but in the end I'd be paying a monthly fee for something I intermittedly used.
In short, I love WoW but I believe I need to quit for now. This is one of the rare times where despite the fact I'm enjoying myself, it could be time best spent invested somewhere else, and all I'm really doing is the same material over and over again (or going to the same places to learn how to beat it so we can grind it later) to get better gear.
The coutnerpoint is, of course, that WoW is about the people, not the place or reward. To this assessment, I concur. I mean, the commeraderie is fantastic! I have great friends and we enjoy each others company immensely, but when you boil it down, it's truly a bunch of friendly-minded people doing the same scenarios over and over again over a significantly long period. This sounds negative, and it is, but please know that I have enjoyed my time raiding. I did not find it unpleasurable, but now I feel it doesn't match the kind of give and take required in order to have it take up a worthwhile portion of my personal time.
I hate leaving, but I know it's the best thing for me in the long run. It is readily apparent, at least for now, that this is what WoW is specifically designed for. Endgame was designed for the exact type of activities that I have described.
There are other concerns as well, items that I have consistently objected to but could find no resolution to, and thus in my mind find no justification to vocalize. In fairness this time I will say them regardless. If most of us did not participate in these events due to choice or time, we would be somewhat exclusded from any kind of regulated mutual interaction. A minor schizm with no resolution in my eyes. I know this to be the case from my past, when the highest level of guild interaction some folks would get would be a smile, a wave from someone powerleveling off in some distant land while others casually played their way through the system up to present day in terms of raiding.
There are many of us who possess the mentality and the ability to embrace endgame readily and easily. To those of you, I concede the simple fact that World of Warcraft is designed correctly for your demographic. Firechief, if anyone is matched well to this kind of schema, it is you. You have the at least superficially-appearing life circumstances to consistently surge forward into endagame with open arms and a full budget of time and affiliated resources at your disposal. If anything, you diserve it, having to concede two previous characters due to server moves just to help fellow #CP# out. By rights, this is your time to take your character as far as she will go and I wish you the best in that endeavor. I respect that. You have a drive unmatched, and a positive attitude to resurrect even the most hopeless of groups in dire circumstances.
However, there a small number who do not possess the time nor perhaps the inclination (i.e. Carch or perhaps Darklord as an example) to continually take on this playstyle. I feel that the way WoW demands people to play is in direct conflict with the very nature of how we originally and quite honestly used to interact with each other. We've become splintered between those who play casually for the sake of enjoying each others company, and those who play in order to obtain a quite bluntly somewhat ever-rising level of perfection through a combination of gear and reputation-grinding with whoever is able to catch up long enough to keep pace.
This sounds like I'm saying we do nothing together, and I apologize for this initial inference. I do not claim this. We do plenty together still but it is executed in a haphhazard style, in between bouts of Battlegrounds and scheduled raids that not everyone can or will participate in.
Is this a valid concern? Yes. Is it fixable? Not yet. Is it fair to criticize? No, honestly it isn't. No one can control the way the game was intentionally designed nor the diverse nature of our lives. However, it is a fact, and it's the elephant in the china shop people would rather step around becuase in essence there's no way to prevent it.
In fact, I do not expect anyone to prevent it in any way. People are having fun, and that's what #CP# is all about. I just know that this is not the way I met you guys originally, nor how I really want things to go any longer for my interpretation of fun. While tense situations and disagreements over these issues have been resolved and taken care of for the most part, people have being hurt and people have been excluded no matter who or what is responsible. To be blunt again, they should never have happened in the first place, regardless of how committed anyone is to any stance, either for or against habitual raiding. I do not expect a state of perfection but I want something better than this. So, coupled with my own personal conflicts and objections, I feel it is time for me to go.
Once I make my final decision, and I technically haven't yet, my account will run out on August 8th. Near then I will post my hiatus information on the Blighted message board as well as to inform them of my hiatus stats. I will remain in contact via e-mail, this board, and hotline as I do not intend to vanish again.
I want to play with Clan Plaid, but I want to it to be an experience that is non-exclusionary. I want it to be an experience that we can all readily embrace and that can satisfy our mutually diverse levels of life-demands and personal dedication. I want to be able to hop on a voice chat, find something out there that we can all participate in, and march forth somewhat more in unison as in days gone by. In the final estimation, I want to be able to play a game that rewards the sacrifices I make not with repetitive motion and a token item celebrated by a select few, but with the knowledge I'm experiencing something special and fun with ALL of my friends, who I respect so very much.
Will we achieve this in the future? I cannot say. Perhaps Burning crusade will assist this wish. Perhaps it won't. But for now, I move on. Maybe I'll see you in Halo 3 as well.
I'll try to keep this brief, both because it will make my points easier to remember and because it's time for me to leave work and go home to WoW some more
I think the situation is not as dire as you make it out to be. You jumped back into the game with both feet, almost immediately became one of the most active raiders, and have now burnt out again. It happens all the time, and I completely agree that spending more time in the Real World is probably an excellent idea. Congratulations on getting back out of the Zone.
I think our current situation on Staghelm is about as good as we could possibly hope for. Nearly everyone has a high level character that can play with the rest of the "mains". Several people have active alts to explore new skills and new areas they may have missed the first time around. The most active of us have Blighted to raid with and pursue the truly 1337 gear and most challenging game content.
It is unreasonable to expect any more than this. No one should feel bad if the entire guild is not in the same place doing the same thing at all times. We have different tastes to start with, our tastes can change dramatically, and the time we have available to play will always be varied. There is a whole virtual world of people we can play with outside of CP if for some reason we can't find an all-CP solution to our current goals. Play with others who enjoy doing what you do, and maybe you'll find the next Garumako or Vragak.
I find the monthly fee trivial compared to what I spend on lunch or a movie. I play as much or as little as I want, and nearly always get to do something enjoyable. Small group content is scheduled to make a comeback soon, and the battlegrounds are getting revamped as well. Raids with Blighted are making good progress and may be moving into BWL soon.
If anything needs to change, it is the way we communicate our preferences to each other. Let's start making better use of the Party Planning board to ask for some group activities. Hell, set up a repeating event in the style of Halo night or Myth night. Wednesday nights, 9 server time, we do some 5-man action. That kind of thing.
But no matter what, stop limiting our focus to what we can do as just CP. I was grinding out the XP on my lock, doing some quests I'd done before and some I hadn't. Wandered into a hunter, and spent the rest of the night doing the same quests in a group of two. It was a hell of a lot more fun. I look forward to doing more group stuff with alts. I think the game has plenty to offer if we treat it as a scenic journey and not a race to tier 3 outfits. The biggest danger is that some of us may forget to spend some of our quality time in the world of humans instead of orcs. I don't mean Alliance instead of Horde.
Well I'm sorry I made it sound dire, I already stated twice I expect nothing more than what we have, and was satisfied with it. I merely voiced my own opinion and concerns. I cannot expect any state beyond the one we've made for ourselves. We're doing quite well, but I'm in a time right now where I feel I need to step away a bit. I guess you missed these parts of my comments.
I also don't want to force CP into any mold, sorry to give that impression. My rhetoric is more whimsical than literal. I tried to riddle my post with enouth caveats where I concede we're in a good place despite my own slight objections to prevent that kind of intepretation.
I just didn't want to go without saying something about my reasoning and perspective thus far.
Whatever disagreements we have in terms of where we stand aside, my objections at least in terms of the games aesthetic virtues as they are stand somewhat. It doesn't matter if I power-raided or not, the overall design is the same in execution. I simply don't have the ability to raid without taking time away from people and other activities I care about in the real world. And to be perfectly blunt, one of the fundamental concerns I had was that some do see endgame as a race to tier 3 loot, while others do not. You can paint rainbows and roses all you want, but that is something that will continaully be an obstacle to these organizational reforms you hope to somehow instill here.
But blah blah blah, it's all just noise in the end isn't it? I never said WoW wasn't fun, and you agree with the real world taking prominence, which is the real crux of the matter anyway.
But you do bring up other valid points, and perhaps it would be best for me if I just cut my time down and continud to contribute. Suffice it to say, I'll put some serious thought into staying but a little more moderated level. Maybe a brief weekend reprieve, at the very least, will help me come to a permanent decision.
But then I thought better. Executive Summary: You are overanalyzing things. Blackrock itself cannot compare to what you have transformed your molehill into.
I am going to address a couple of the things you said. Don't take this as an attempt at debate, or me nitpicking, I merely want to put forward my feelings and point of view, as I think you have a slightly distorted opinon of me and my motivations.
In short, I love WoW but I believe I need to quit for now. This is one of the rare times where despite the fact I'm enjoying myself, it could be time best spent invested somewhere else
This is all you really needed to say. If you feel your time needs to be spent somewhere else, then... Shalom! Catch you around. Have fun.
but when you boil it down, it's truly a bunch of friendly-minded people doing the same scenarios over and over again over a significantly long period. This sounds negative, and it is, but please know that I have enjoyed my time raiding. I did not find it unpleasurable, but now I feel it doesn't match the kind of give and take required in order to have it take up a worthwhile portion of my personal time.
If I have time for recreation, and I enjoy what I do during that time, then I really don't factor anything else into the equation. I'm really not sure what you mean by "give and take". Is the game not giving enough? Are you not taking enough? But you said you enjoyed it??? I'm a tad confused
As for the first part. Well, duh. That's why we played Myth for so long. How many games of For Carnage Apply Within... have I played? Creep? LmotH on Grave?
The first part of your arguement can be applied to all social games -- all games involve some amount of repetition. That's why they have rules and frameworks. It's up to each person to find the games which have the amount of variety they need to be entertained. And hopefully the game will have enough social interaction to take the edge of any excessive repetition.
Some people would say that WoW is too repetitive. Some say it isn't. Some think playing MC every week gets boring. Me, I've only killed Majordomo 3 times, and ragnaros once. Now we're close to that goal again, and although there is ebb and flow, I enjoy the experience as a whole. I'm not bored to death yet.
You have the at least superficially-appearing life circumstances to consistently surge forward into endagame with open arms and a full budget of time and affiliated resources at your disposal... By rights, this is your time to take your character as far as she will go and I wish you the best in that endeavor. I respect that.
The thought of "surging forward" by joining a hardcore raiding guild has crossed my mind, but alas I think this is where you have a slightly distorted perception of my gaming time. I'm currently playing at my limit. There is lots going on right now, and running MC two nights a week is all I can handle. If I'm lucky I can toss in a ZG run.
Perhaps when winter comes along, and things settle down and I've moved, and the bitter cold prevents forays into the out-of-doors, I'll have more time to really dig in.
You have a drive unmatched, and a positive attitude to resurrect even the most hopeless of groups in dire circumstances.
Awww... that's sweet of you to say. I don't think it's true as of late. I remember a few recent situations where I'm just too tired/frustrated to carry on. But that's ok. I don't mind taking a page from Carch's playbook, even if I mollify the play a bit.
I feel that the way WoW demands people to play is in direct conflict with the very nature of how we originally and quite honestly used to interact with each other. We've become splintered between those who play casually ... [and those who play] ... through a combination of gear and reputation-grinding with whoever is able to catch up long enough to keep pace.
I think (hope?) this is a bit overstated. There have been times in the past where some where frustrated due to different schedules/priorities/etc. But I think by and large everyone still has a similar mindset... I don't feel a scism, though I recognize that not everyone plays the game for exactly the same reasons.
There are four broad areas of achievement in the game: quests, reputation, pvp, raiding. All of these areas I would like to keep non-exclusionary.
In my view, no one should be barred or discouraged from any of those paths to achievement. There are times when a majority of us aren't participating in those areas. There are times when most of us are concentrating on a particular area. There are times when one of us feels like concentrating on one area. To me, this is fine.
Play and let play. If you can't find people who are on the same page as you, poke the bushes with a stick for a bit. No response? Don't get frustrated. Try later. Unfortunately our guild isn't quite big enough to always find someone who wants to do the same thing you do. When that happens to me, I just find something else to do and realize that though we encourage playing together and finding common ground, we are not obliged to force people to do what we would like to do.
Sometimes I feel unfairly tagged with the ol' "he doesn't give a crap about what we want to do and help us" ... at least I hope unfairly. My perception is that I have helped people who have asked me for it more often than not. But perhaps it is my rose-coloured glasses that are distorted. I do what I can with my limited social skills.
While tense situations and disagreements over these issues have been resolved and taken care of for the most part, people have being hurt and people have been excluded no matter who or what is responsible. To be blunt again, they should never have happened in the first place, regardless of how committed anyone is to any stance, either for or against habitual raiding. I do not expect a state of perfection but I want something better than this. So, coupled with my own personal conflicts and objections, I feel it is time for me to go.
I really don't see how things can be "better". I think/hope feelings have been mended and the issues of the past are behind us.
We could divide into raiding/casual/pvp guild "factions" and split everyone into little groups or three new guilds or whatever, but then our communal experience would be diminished.
I want to play with Clan Plaid, but I want to it to be an experience that is non-exclusionary.
I'm sure we can all agree on this.
To be perfectly, 100% clear:
If anyone wants to raid... anyone ... sign up for it. Trust me, what gear you're wearing in a 20/40 man raid of ZG or MC means very little. I've heard some of that excuse -- it simply isn't true. We have an agreement with blighted. Again everyone in #CP# is invited and welcomed to the raids.
If anyone wants to pvp... go ahead. Invite me too, I need an excuse to keep my rank up.
If anyone wants to do a dungeon... invite me. Don't expect me to come Fri/Sat nights before 10pm tho. An unfortunate side effect of raiding is that it has to be scheduled.
If anyone wants to grind crap in Silithus, need help in EPL, do armor upgrade quests or whatever... depending on my time, plans and location in Azeroth there is an 80% chance I'll help you out. Sorry I can't give a 100% guarantee, but to keep my sanity I do need to give myself 20% ME ME ME time.
I want to be able to play a game that rewards the sacrifices I make not with repetitive motion and a token item celebrated by a select few, but with the knowledge I'm experiencing something special and fun with ALL of my friends, who I respect so very much.
This is where I think you've made your mountain. I celebrate achievements of everyone in the guild. From BC totally ninja'ing the Felheart Robes in Molten Core, to our first 45 minute pwnzoring of the Baron, to DL getting a second character tantalyzingly close to 60, passing Zans in the process
Of course, the knife cuts both ways. If people take posts of phat lewt in Guild Chat as bragging "rubbing peoples nose" in it and such, what can I do? Personally I make the general rule that if I'm doing something alone without any #CP# I keep achievements to myself "in the moment". If I'm with other #CP# who have helped me to the lofty goal... hellz ya i'll celebrate with Green Text!
I made an exception with Valor Shoulders tho. The frustration was lifted when those things finally dropped for me. :P
I recognize I'm not perfect. There have been times my own selfish motivations have trampled on the feelings of others. I'd like to again apologize for that. I hope I've grown from the experience and won't let it happen again. I won't mention any names lest someone else who's felt slighted thinks worse of me for not mentioning them. I will just say I have TWO particular people in mind, and you know who you are!!!
The problem is, you deal in specific events and in paritcular items of loot. I could honestly care less about any of those things. Which I suppose, after a fashion, somewhat confuses me a bit. Half of your reply is citing things I didn't particularly mean to say and some I cannot fathom at all. Though I know it may be hard to believe, I have no particular or specific gripe about you.
As to parts where I did mention you, directly or indirectly, thanks for the insight. I stand corrected, though in all honestly you need not defend anything.
I didn't mean to sound so detailed, and for that I apologize.
And to be perfectly blunt, one of the fundamental concerns I had was that some do see endgame as a race to tier 3 loot, while others do not.
I'm just going to throw this out there...
I don't know of anyone in the guild that feels this way. anyone
Unless it's you??? Is it you Wally??? NOOOOOOO!!!
And as for Deac's remarks... I knew he'd come through! Even though we find different things in the game fun, we have exactly the same mindset. I killed way more electrons than was necessary.
One last note: I'm not trying to convice anyone of anything.
If I am wrong, then so be it. Perhaps a brief time away will clear me out enough to hop back into the swing of things. I'd rather stay than leave fully.
The problem is, you deal in specific events and in paritcular items of loot. I could honestly care less about any of those things. Which I suppose, after a fashion, somewhat confuses me a bit. Half of your reply is citing things I didn't particularly mean to say and some I cannot fathom at all. Though I know it may be hard to believe, I have no particular or specific gripe about you.
As to parts where I did mention you, directly or indirectly, thanks for the insight. I stand corrected, though in all honestly you need not defend anything.
Wow. Now I'm confused.
I did not take anything you said a personal gripe in a least. I knew I spent too much time with the details! Doh.
Much of my post was directed in general at the gulid membership. After rereading my post, I recognize portions where I use the pronoun "you" in the general sense, and it wasn't directed particularily at you, Waluin/Marrana. Perhaps that's where the confusion lies. I find the pronoun "one" to be too formal and haughty sounding.
I've noticed that we often have this problem. It's happened in game too ... we seem to talk past each other, completely misinterpreting each other's comments and motivations. In the end we usually can figure it out, though.
(Jocularity alert!) In that spirit, let me say... you're wrong. I wasn't talking about specific loot or events. I haven't the foggiest where you got that idea.
And secondly, how am I supposed to know what you mean or didn't mean to say? The record is there! You clearly said the quoted text! Nyaa! :P
I didn't mean to sound so detailed, and for that I apologize.
"CP has changed too much. WTF is up with this new room and shit? I feel out of place. Yer all into WoW and stuff? Guess I'm a console-boi now. OK, I'm feeling less CP then ever before. No worries. It was fun. I'll see you soon. mb
Well I suppose this takes care of most my concerns regardless. Compromise: I'll take this weekend off to relax and realize I overthink things sometimes. But I can't help but feel some of my concerns about WoW at least, at the very basic level, are valid in terms of how they correlate to 'the real world'.
Anyway, I suppose I needed this dialogue badly, just to figure out where we are and where we're going. With that, I feel a bit more comfortable. Sorry for stirring the pot I guess.
The most active of us have Blighted to raid with and pursue the truly 1337 gear and most challenging game content.
Ok, here we go. I don't want to threadjack Wally's "bye for now" but this is exactly the mindset that bothers me. And DL. And used to bother Wally. There is nothing, I repeat nothing more challenging about end game raids, when compared with 5 man dungeons and PVP. Rep grinding, maybe, but that depends entirely on how you play it. Raiders are not "better" at the game than non-raiders. And that's what that statement implies. Translates in my head to: "Hey, no biggie, if you can't handle the most challenging game content, that's cool." I realize you probably didn't intend it that way, but it's condescending at best.
If anyone wants to raid... anyone ... sign up for it.
The nature of raiding is inherently exclusive. It is tied to a strict schedule which even I--who often play WoW more hours than most, because I'm disabled--can not adhere. It's very hard for me to make Blighted raids because they are scheduled at the exact same time I'm doing family things. Raids are so time-intensive that no matter how you schedule them, they will exclude some people. It's not that us non-raiders feel we're not part of the raid clique, it's primarily that we can't be available when raids are happening.
Smaller dungeons, non-Alterac PVP, and questing activities can happen at any time, on a whim, and anyone can participate. You can't get 20 or 40 people together without a schedule.
to be perfectly blunt, one of the fundamental concerns I had was that some do see endgame as a race to tier 3 loot, while others do not.
I don't know of anyone in the guild that feels this way. anyone
Huh. You could have fooled me. And DL. And sometimes even Vrag has expressed Wally's frustration. It sure as hell looks to us like there are guild members who are more into chasing loot than partying with their fellow guildies.
That's the core of the problem, if you ask me. And I don't see it going away, because it's a fundamental difference in play style.
I have ideas for a solution, but I don't think people would like it much. And now's not the right time to be talking about that anyway.
I wish Wally the best in getting back in touch with the real world. The fact, though, is that every guild I've ever been in--except one hardcore raiding guild I was in for about 2 hours--has this schism. It's omnipresent. I've never seen it handled to the satisfaction of both sides, in any of those dozen or more guilds.
Sorry for stirring the pot I guess.
Don't you dare. The pot needs to be stirred. It needs it badly.
There is nothing, I repeat nothing more challenging about end game raids, when compared with 5 man dungeons and PVP. Rep grinding, maybe, but that depends entirely on how you play it. Raiders are not "better" at the game than non-raiders. And that's what that statement implies. Translates in my head to: "Hey, no biggie, if you can't handle the most challenging game content, that's cool." I realize you probably didn't intend it that way, but it's condescending at best.
I would agree that there is nothing inherently more challenging, play-wise, about a raid encounter compared to a 5-man. Raid encounters are perhaps more logistically challenging. It's a lot harder to get 40 people on the same page and figuring out how to beat the first boss in BWL than it is to get 5 people on the same page.
By the same token, I have yet to find anything in a raid that is more taxing and challenging play-wise than a 45-minute Baron run.
I think you're totally offbase about the interpretation of that comment though. Methinks you've been reading the "raiders" vs. "casual" debates on the wow forums too much.
The nature of raiding is inherently exclusive. It is tied to a strict schedule which even I--who often play WoW more hours than most, because I'm disabled--can not adhere. It's very hard for me to make Blighted raids because they are scheduled at the exact same time I'm doing family things. Raids are so time-intensive that no matter how you schedule them, they will exclude some people. It's not that us non-raiders feel we're not part of the raid clique, it's primarily that we can't be available when raids are happening.
Smaller dungeons, non-Alterac PVP, and questing activities can happen at any time, on a whim, and anyone can participate. You can't get 20 or 40 people together without a schedule.
This is true, if people can't set aside a block of 4hrs on Wed/Thu/Fri or Sat then they obviously have to exclude themselves from participating. That wasn't the gist of my point though. I have heard people say they'd like to raid, but they need "better gear" first. I wanted to make it clear that the need for gear in the raids we're currently running is nil. Everyone is welcome to raid, we have no gear qualifications. (save for the final boss of MC who we haven't beaten yet).
Huh. You could have fooled me. And DL. And sometimes even Vrag has expressed Wally's frustration. It sure as hell looks to us like there are guild members who are more into chasing loot than partying with their fellow guildies.
I raid because I enjoy it, not because I am chasing loot. Yes I admit, I have chased loot in the past through pvp, tier 0.5 upgrade quests, grinding for the carnies, mainly to give myself a goal. I'm not interested in levelling 5 alts. Therefore the only means for advancement is by getting better gear.
This doesn't mean I chase loot as a priority over partying with fellow guildies. I stand by my statement. If there was someone in this guild who had "the race to tier 3 loot" as a priority they would have left the guild long ago and joined a more hardcore raiding guild.
That's the core of the problem, if you ask me. And I don't see it going away, because it's a fundamental difference in play style.
Meh. The schism is artificial in my view. No one will always be on the same page all the time. People will set aside time to do the things they want to do. People will make time to do things with others when the opportunity presents itself. People just have to respect each other, and what they find to be fun.
I find the game most enjoyable when doing challenging things with a group of like-minded friends. There is a continuum of different things people find enjoyable. It's a spectrum. People's preferences, priorities and goals change over time as well.
Setting up artificial barriers and labelling people as "raiders" "non-raiders" "loot horrz" "carebears" etc. is something I hate and it's conterproductive.
Labels don't interest me as much as what I am experiencing.
Last night I tried hard to get into a CP group, finally elbowed my way (or what felt like elbowing anyway) into a quick BRD arena run which ended in several wipes, which were blamed on me, and which we were unable to recover from because a raid was starting.
All day today, raiding. Not to sound sappy or anything, but I actually had to turn guild chat off because the Onyxia banter was really making me feel left out.
Maybe you're not seeing the "us" vs "them" because you're one of the "us," Chief.
Anyway, between all this, and my inability to accomplish ANY PVP all day today, and the uber lag I've been experiencing on the server again, Staghelm is rapidly becoming unfun again. After I paid $50 to move two of my favorite characters over.
Oh well.
If I get fed up, I'm not going to make some big announcement, I'll just fade away. And I don't want to, because I really enjoy playing with you guys, but like Free said above, it just doesn't seem like the same group to me any more.
Let me preface this by saying I hear you, I'm not big on raiding either, and it's frustrating to log in and see everyone in MC.
That said, what do you expect them to do, not go on raids anymore?
Seems to me an "us vs them" environment would be one in which some CP couldn't go on raids because they weren't geared up or good enough. That's not the case here, all of us are invited to go any time we want. If some of us choose not to raid, how is that the problem of the folks who do?
If some of us choose not to raid, how is that the problem of the folks who do?
It's not your problem. It's my problem. I want to be part of a group where I feel like I fit in. In this guild, there isn't enough activity that lines up with my needs. Didn't used to be that way, but it is now.
Another point I was trying to make is that some of the seperateness I'm feeling seems intentional. Chief and others say otherwise, but you know... actions, meet words.
There is nothing, I repeat nothing more challenging about end game raids, when compared with 5 man dungeons and PVP. Rep grinding, maybe, but that depends entirely on how you play it. Raiders are not "better" at the game than non-raiders. And that's what that statement implies.
Calling BWL and Naxx "the most challenging game content" does not in any way imply that raiders are better at the game. It just means that of the content Blizz is putting out there, that stuff is the hardest to complete. It relies on getting 40 people online at the same time and acting as a team. That to me is a much more challenging task than finding five people to do a 45 strat run. Even if the individual skill level and teamwork must be much higher for strat. Or PVP.
It's not your problem. It's my problem. I want to be part of a group where I feel like I fit in. In this guild, there isn't enough activity that lines up with my needs. Didn't used to be that way, but it is now.
As people progress into the raid content, their play time will become scheduled. The time invested in a raid means they probably will not feel up to doing other stuff immediately before or after the raid. The drive to see some of the payoff from raiding means they will likely join as many raids as they expect to have time for. This means less people around for non-raid stuff. This sucks for people who never raid.
Is the solution to make the raiders feel bad about it? I don't think so. As I've suggested before, maybe you should fight schedules with schedules. A lot of people are around on ____day at __:___ but they're all in a __-man raid. Post a note asking if the day before or day after at the same time would be a good time to do something else:
1) 2-5 man questing day
2) Alt day
3) PVP day
Or schedule something for the same time as a raid so people can opt out of it - there's no penalty for missing raids they never signed up for. People who want to raid can respond with "sorry, i'm really enjoying the fights in _____ and i nearly have the _-piece set bonus". Other people will probably say "yeah we run that damn place every week, let's change it up".
I don't think I will ever enjoy raiding enough to make it more than 50% of my time online, and there are probably lots like me. I'd love to start some scheduled cp pvp sessions. The next patch may make that impossible but it will also prevent you from being locked out like you seem to have been today.
Another point I was trying to make is that some of the seperateness I'm feeling seems intentional. Chief and others say otherwise, but you know... actions, meet words.
All I can say is if you think you're being singled out, you'll find evidence for it everywhere. Doesn't mean it's true. Tonight when you hopped on I gave you a hail. Turns out you had /g off and turned it back on while i was in the middle of a fight that scrolled the chat log quite a bit so I didn't notice. Next thing I know you're logged off and possibly feeling ignored/persecuted. I hope not. *shrug*
All day today, raiding. Not to sound sappy or anything, but I actually had to turn guild chat off because the Onyxia banter was really making me feel left out.
This is simply not true. I played quite a bit of WoW on Sunday, the day you posted this. I raided for 1/4 the time I was playing. Here's what I did.
10:20 - Logged on with Xief. I had a bunch of crafting I wanted to do. Worked on that.
11:00 - 2:00 : Yee wanted to do LBRS. I said sure, but I wanted to take Xief. BC, Grout, Yee and & found a warrior.
2:00-3:00 : Warrior & BC had to go. We found a hunter and a druid to replace, waited for them to arrive, steath through instance, etc.
Sometime after 3:00 - The druid's dad said he was playing too much and had to go. Asked in guild chat if anyone wanted to come. Kalli just logged on, and there was some discussion whether we were going to take the hunter's druid buddy or Kalli. We opted on taking the guildie.
I *think* you may have been logged on to your druid at that time, but it may have been after. I honestly don't remember.
3:00-4:00 Kill Wyrm, do ogre pile thingy.
4:30ish - I'm feeling a bit fatigued, but since everyone is on and I really want to get my Boots o' Heroism, I ask Grout if he wants to try the arena again. We ask in Guild chat if there's any interest. I know for certain you were logged on at this time because you were frustrated about waiting an hour for pvp and made some sarcastic comment about enjoying the ony raid that evening. Mendicant gave a poigniant smiley and you logged off.
Mendicant and Kalli agree to join us for the arena. Garumako logs on. No one else has piped up so i send him a tell. He has no idea what we are talking about, but says it sounds like fun so he comes anyways.
5:00-6:30 - We beat the arena. We decide to carry on and kill incendius for fire resist stuff for garu. And we go to the bar to pick a fight ... I took a short break. Got invited to the Ony Raid at 7:00 pm.
I moved Xief over here for the express reason of doing 5-man dungeons with guildies, since Xetasi doesn't have much more to accomplish in the 5-mans except wresting a helm from that damned Gandling. I'm making every effort to be available. I'm truly sorry you feel the way that you do.
Hmm... After posting this, I realized what may have been the source of your comment "all day raiding".
You probably saw in the Guild tab that we were in "Blackrock Spire". You probably assumed we were in UBRS. You believe running 10-man UBRS is "Raiding". (At this point, I will dispense with arguing the technicalities as to why I don't consider 10-man dungeons "raiding".)
Well, as you see in my post, we were in a 5-man party all day. The raiding didn't start until that evening. There ya go. Sorry for arguing that point, I guess it was just an assumption you made rather than an exaggeration. For what it's worth.
I don't know what the solution is (individual or otherwise), but I'm not the only person feeling this way.
I may or may not be doing a good job of expressing myself, becasue I've been hopped up on Percocet all week cos of my ankle problem.
One point that I didn't make, but which is still buggin me is what appears to be the reaction to dissatisfaction. Maybe I'm romanticizing the "good old days" but it seems to me that the general reaction to someone in the group with a problem didn't used to be "What do you expect us to do?" It was more along the lines of "How can we make this right?"
Deacon's shown more of what I would expect, with the suggestion for scheduling, and maybe it's something just that simple. When people are leaving the guild, or just having second thoughts about sticking around, though, seems to me the "for FUN and HONOR" response is not "well, don't let the door hit you on the ass..." or "that's the way it is, suck it up", or "I guess this game just isn't for you."
One point that I didn't make, but which is still buggin me is what appears to be the reaction to dissatisfaction. Maybe I'm romanticizing the "good old days" but it seems to me that the general reaction to someone in the group with a problem didn't used to be "What do you expect us to do?" It was more along the lines of "How can we make this right?"
Hmm. I'm sorry if that's the tone I conveyed. It is true that you are romanticizing though... I recall "Saxumgate" and those other trying times of the past... ah yes... the good ol' days. It seems in general these things progress from "WTF you're full of shit!" to "OMG quit being an ass!" before finally ending up in the "How can we make this right?" territory.
Deacon's shown more of what I would expect, with the suggestion for scheduling, and maybe it's something just that simple. When people are leaving the guild, or just having second thoughts about sticking around, though, seems to me the "for FUN and HONOR" response is not "well, don't let the door hit you on the ass..." or "that's the way it is, suck it up", or "I guess this game just isn't for you."
I would like to nominate Deacon for "best posts in this thread". I'm in 100% agreement with everything he's posted, and he's done a far better job than I. Kudos!
Maybe I'm romanticizing the "good old days" but it seems to me that the general reaction to someone in the group with a problem didn't used to be "What do you expect us to do?" It was more along the lines of "How can we make this right?"
I think you're just running into cheerleader fatigue. We've had our share of people who /gquit or made dramatic posts before and it's tough to talk someone down who is upset, whether or not you think their problems are overstated. After doing it a few times, there's the urge to just say "man, haven't you been paying attention to how everyone else worked out their drama? things will be fine, now stop being a killjoy".
Drama increases over time with every game. I've heard "it's just not the same anymore" one way or another from the myth crowd, halo crowd, diablo II guys, and on and on. I bet Nate is still wondering why the hell more of us don't play Guild Wars. Novelty wears off, the situation does change, and longing for the "glory days" is no more helpful than daydreaming about an old girlfriend. You're probably mis-remembering anyway. I remember in the happiest of myth times there were always people trying to get me to change from creep terries to carnage lmoth (shudder) because we "always play the same thing" and "ffa rules" etc, etc.
I would like to nominate Deacon for "best posts in this thread". I'm in 100% agreement with everything he's posted, and he's done a far better job than I. Kudos!
I remember being a whiny little turd while I was leveling, or at least wanting to post obscenities into guild chat because no one was helping me, everyone was off doing their own thing, I couldn't get a question answered, omg priests sux.... you name it. I've felt neglected, I've felt the game was repetitive and numbing, I've been pissed at rude people inside and outside the guild. At one point I spent a day off of Staghelm and evaluated whether my time there was worth it. I decided it was, as long as I wasn't forced to grind in any capacity - xp, dkp, honor, or rep.
I am resigned to the fact I will probably never have a piece of tier 3, or warlord equipment. I may hit 300 in cooking or fishing but AD is likely to be the first and last faction I get to exalted. My available time will change dramatically as I move, change jobs, finish school, whatever. I will continue to log on and have fun learning the group roles in WoW and doing a better job of executing them with friends. One day I will cancel my account, and one day after that I will reactivate it. I'm reasonably certain that someone I enjoy playing with now will have cancelled their account within a month. I'm reasonably certain that someone I have not yet met will be a valued play buddy within a month. My strategy is simple. Play means doing what you enjoy. Learn2Play.
Let me see if I can elaborate on what Carch is saying by telling you of my WoW experience.
To me, it seems like I'm always running solo. It's been like that since day one. I wanted to get to 60, so I can 'be part of the gang' and run instances and such with you guys. So I get to 60 and it's like......'poof'..... where is everyone?
At the time, there were less people who were active (BC was on tour - Groutous wasn't seen much - Wang was off doing Wang things). Ok - so I finally find the LFG channel, and I start doing PUG's. At first, it really sucked - but I had no choice. This meant that most of the runs I did were with total strangers. That's fine, but I wanted to play with my friends. I thought I might enjoy it more. So I bang out a bunch of quests with PUG's. Somehow, I wind up getting my Onyxia key way before a lot of the west coasters who play together. This made no sense to me, I figured everyone was miles ahead of me! I play by myself, they get together and run instances.
Finding a PUG isn't always easy, nor it is always worth it. So, I make an alt and play with him a bit. I figure to make an enchanter, so he can enchant stuff for my warrior. I'm still not playing much with any CP, so I work on my alt and try advance his professions for my own sake. Next thing I know, I'm over 40 and got my mount. I slow down, play him sporadically - usually just for DE'ing and such.
I'm still not doing much at all with any CP. So I make a mage! Why? To try her at BG's. I work on getting her to about level 12-13 and join WSG. I had fun and found some people who would do it regularly. This is ok for a while, but you can't do PVP all the time.
I'm not sure what to do next. I here Pat talk about stealthing in and doing some stuff solo in instances. I start thinking - "Maybe I should make a rogue - I'm doing stuff solo anyway - why not make the most of it and be able to do engame that way as well?". I make a rogue and work her up to level 19. I choose skinning - since Suxorian needs leather sometimes (and was making things for Kalli at the time).
While this has been going on, I was watching people like Kalli log in and go right to AQ. There were other CP around, but they seemed to be more involved with Sicarri than anything.
I do more PUG's.
Finally, there is starting to be a returning of CP. BC comes off tour - Wang resurfaces - etc. Now I'm thinking "Great! Now we'll finally be able to do stuff!"
What happens? The guys that are now around more wind up jumping on the raid bandwagon. Even Wally comes back from the dead and signs up for daily raids.
Before I start up WoW, I check our forums. I look at CoE and Blighted's raid signup forums. And what do I see? Every raid has like 4 or more CP signed up for every upcoming raid. This is fine, but when would they have time for anything else I wonder? Every time I log in and there are CP on, everyone is in a raid of some kind. This ties them up for like 4 hours at a pop, with not much time before or afterwards for anything else.
So I'm frustrated - there are more guys around - and yet there are none.
I have a 300 skill armorsmith. Honestly, no one cares. I can make stuff - but no one wants it. I can even make fire resist gear, but no one has more than a passing "oh cool" before it's forgotten. I had advanced his skill so he'd hopefully be useful to the guild, but the guild has no use for him.
I work on my alt - advancing his enchanting skills. Thinking he might be more usefull instead. However, there are 2 problems:
1) the guild doesn't use Guildadds.
2) the guild doesn't seem to help itself as a whole.
I play my alt a lot and now I'm at level 59. A good achievement? Maybe - but it's because I have too much time to do things solo.
I can't force anyone to play a certain way. I play to have fun and so does everyone else.
Being in the guild is just a chat channel for me.
I constanly kick around the idea of leaving. I want to be part of something more than myself I suppose.
So if we can get DL, Mori, Carch and me on at the same time a few days a week, sounds like we've got a balanced, nearly complete group to do some questage. And that's just the people from this thread who want in. I can think of at least two others who have expressed the same feelings outside of here.
Since no one seems interested in suggesting a time, I will. Mondays and Wednesdays, 9pm server. From what I remember one of those (mondays?) is a no-go for DL so this could change. I sure haven't seen much of Mori or DL lately, anyway. Post your suggestions here or in the instances forum. A bunch of us sighing about the status quo is no different than an instance run with no puller. Get something started, hmm? It just so happens to be Monday and I'm heading home from work...
Let me see if I can elaborate on what Carch is saying by telling you of my WoW experience
Thanks for the elaboration. In the past, whenever I log on you've already been logged on and doing something. Our different schedules make it hard to hook up regularly. For the last week or two I've hardly seen you online at all when I'm on.
Before I start up WoW, I check our forums. I look at CoE and Blighted's raid signup forums. And what do I see? Every raid has like 4 or more CP signed up for every upcoming raid. This is fine, but when would they have time for anything else I wonder? Every time I log in and there are CP on, everyone is in a raid of some kind. This ties them up for like 4 hours at a pop, with not much time before or afterwards for anything else.
This is true for 3-4 days a week. There's another 3-4 days a week to do non-raiding activities. If people just plan them, I'll try and make it.
I transferred Xief over expressly for that purpose. I played him for 8 hours yesterday doing various dungeons with plaid. It was fun.
I have a 300 skill armorsmith. Honestly, no one cares. I can make stuff - but no one wants it. I can even make fire resist gear, but no one has more than a passing "oh cool" before it's forgotten. I had advanced his skill so he'd hopefully be useful to the guild, but the guild has no use for him.
I will be needing the following soon (within the next week or two): Dark Iron Helm
I may want the Leggings and a couple others two. I'll send you what mats I have if you can make them.
I work on my alt - advancing his enchanting skills. Thinking he might be more usefull instead. However, there are 2 problems:
1) the guild doesn't use Guildadds.
Guild Ads was causing me problems. I'll try to install the new version see how it works.
2) the guild doesn't seem to help itself as a whole.
I dunno... I'm just now paying back the money kind people have lent me for Quel, I got 2 dark iron bars from Moridin, made pots for Carch, sent him some Mage tier 0 armor, sent you some felcloth to make me mooncloth i needed (thanks!), did the same with Kzu and Groutous, made kalli some Rejuvenation potions, kalli's given me innumerable enchants, last week some plaid helped me farm for Righteous Orbs (if you need one, i have an extra), Grout and I helped each other kill ogres with EQ healing us... I could go on and on...
I'm not trying to dimish the fact you feel left out. I hope you realize I feel frustrated too.
Carch put it best when he said "How can we make this right?" and "What do you expect us to do?" I feel both sentiments, honestly. Both sides of the same coin.
Being in the guild is just a chat channel for me.
I constanly kick around the idea of leaving. I want to be part of something more than myself I suppose.
All I can ask is that if you want to be a part of something, please plan something and invite me to come. I'll be happy to attend. I'll do the same when Xief needs a tank for scholo.
WoW is negatively affecting real life and causing X, Y, Z <---> WoW is less important than real life, turn off the game and go out.
WoW is about X, Y, or Z <----> Sorry, wrong. WoW is a game. Games are for fun. WoW is for U, and U stands for whatever it is that makes WoW fun for you (U)
Maybe you'll find the next Vragak or Garumako <----> Pfft, no. We are too cool to find suitable equals... you will only find slightly lesser versions of us.
WoW is too expensive. <----> Compared. $13 = WoW for a month. $9 for a movie theatre 2 hours movie. $4.50 an hour, 3 hours of WoW a month WoW = $4.33 an hour. Figure other things out for yourself.
No offense but whatever, blah blah, cry more newb, lolomgwtfpwnzorz or whatever else you want to say. Ya know I was going to be nice and stuff but right now... I think being 'nice' for the sake of 'nice' is the incorrect option. Being straightforward is the way best for me right now. I'll say upfront you all rock and this is not a knock on any of you, but I will understand if when I get back from Kansas that i've been booted from #CP#.
Let me first state that I play WoW for one reason, and one reason only. I Enjoy Playing WoW. I stay in #CP# at Staghelm because I enjoy chatting with you all in guild. You are all great to do things with, etc... Do I always help you all, no... no I don't. I have my own things I want to do. I will a lot of the time ask if I can help with something if I am not with plans. I drop my personal things for guild things. But in the end of it... I play because ** I ** find it enjoyable. I don't let it kill my (admittedly small) social life or other things.
I have /gquit more than the rest of you combined. Why? Because of in /g frustrations that I exhaled badly. Most of those times I jumped onto another guild very quickly becuase I had friends in them. I am not saying that #CP# is broken, far from it. #CP# from what I was told is not a typical raiding guild. It was a way for a group of friends to converse and converse in a way to say WE ARE #CP# with a guild tag. We could chat in green text and pick it out easier.
Quite franky, I'm sick and tired of the Xetasi & Kalli are raid and loot whores. Wally is a crybaby who jumped into the deepend instead of wading slowly out to sea. DL & Carch are Raid Haters. Vragak is a confused flip-floper who know one gets and is the FNG of #CP#. Mukow is the sleep-walking Raid Wiper. BC is the summoner whore. Mori is the guy who ninja'd Xet's epic from Drakk. etc. . .
You want my idea for a solution... here it is. And feel free to hate on me as long as you want. I won't be /gquit 'ing. I won't skirt conversations with you if you want an explanation. The solution as propsed by Vragak...
DISBAND THE GUILD.
omgwtfpwnzlazorfishspewpew... did he just say Disband the guild? Yes I did. We are not, and have never been since the day I joined #CP#, a guild that has a ton of people that can get 5 people together consistently for Instances and raids, etc...
We could function as much as #CP# as we are right now by simply disbanding and then doing a "/join ClanPlaid" Yup it is harder to see who is on because there is no social tab... but there is that /xxxxx command (i forget what it is) that tell you who is on.
The #CP# instance day has been tried and failed before, by myself an Garumako.
I joined #CP# because of Mukow. I then learned that #CP# truly did stand for the motto I was told 'For Fun and Honor' All of you play to have fun no matter how you do it. All of you respect everyone else and compromise and talk about it instead of /ignore and F-Offs. Admittedly human emotions come into play more sometimes but in the end it is still #CP#. I then goto a gathering, an ECG this is where I see how true the motto and all that is.
No offense to #CP# or anyone... but the tag on Staghelm is not the #CP#(V,J,...) that I know you all as. The ones I see in CPHL, or saw at gatherings are what Clan Plaid is.
We have Ventrilo. We have a possible "/join ClanPlaid" channel in WoW. We do not need as a guild to be Clan Plaid. Quite frankly as a guild in staghelm has made it's name. But it has made it through individual actions, not guild efforts.
If people want to go to CoE or Blighted or wherever let them.
Right now, as a guild on staghelm is not able to fulfill the wants of all of the #CP#'ers that play on it. So why keep the pretense... go out and find your fun in WoW. #CP# will still be here on CPHL, Ventrilo, Gizmo, /join ClanPlaid, ECG, WCG, MCG etc...
[quote=Vragak]No offense but whatever, blah blah, cry more newb, lolomgwtfpwnzorz or whatever else you want to say. Ya know I was going to be nice and stuff but right now... I think being 'nice' for the sake of 'nice' is the incorrect option.[/quote] 3/10 - poor flame. the feeling is there, it's clear you think you're pushing people's buttons. but despite more paragraphs than most posts have sentences, logic and compassion drag this post way down on the flame-o-meter.
I don't think you're the first to think of this, and possibly not the first to suggest it openly. Not much difference between this and being "absorbed" by another guild. Problem is, this board is the only thing angsty about CP as it stands. In azeroth, every night seems to be fun for the vast majority of the people who show up. Alts are making a big comeback, and there's lots of cooperation to finish quest goals for said alts. Raiders have made tons of progress with our new three-way alliance (too much progress?) and I still see people in BGs in between everything else. There are no problems that disbanding would solve.
Sorry if you get the feeling that the WoW CP are any different than the plaid on CPHL or at gatherings. We all seem about the same to me, with only a few feeling melodramatic at any one time. I think the name CP has made for itself on staghelm is exactly what it should be. People know us as nice guys, quality players, free agents. CP didn't top all the Myth tournaments and we're not gonna be the first to clear Naxx. But we'll be welcome in lots of other guild activities because of the way we handle ourselves.
The ClanPlaid channel is already up and active for our lost sheep, Garu. He's having a blast with the hardcore raiding but still comes to us when he needs a break. He had to "leave" because that's a requirement to run with Reawaken. If anyone else wants to follow in his footsteps I don't think there will be any hard feelings. But the vast majority of us are too casual to get into any other guild that does something CP can't. The social tab lets us see instantly everyone's class, level, and a short note. We can see the exact spelling of the toon names even when they're offline. The names are auto-completed when sending mail. There are lots of good reasons that the status quo is not just "good enough" but the best solution for plaiddies enjoying WoW.
[quote]Right now, as a guild on staghelm is not able to fulfill the wants of all of the #CP#'ers that play on it. So why keep the pretense... go out and find your fun in WoW. #CP# will still be here on CPHL, Ventrilo, Gizmo, /join ClanPlaid, ECG, WCG, MCG etc...[/quote] By all means, anyone who feels CP truly isn't fulfilling your wants should be looking at your options. I doubt anyone will give you a hard time about where you choose to go. My oh-so-humble opinion is that you won't find anything better. Lots of guilds start with people who need each other to achieve something in game, and build comeraderie through bigger and bigger achievements as a group. When the landmark achievements slow, there's nothing to stop the personality conflicts from scattering the members to the next big thing. CP has always been about people of quality who may or may not have similar goals but do enjoy helping each other out. Anything we manage to pull off as a group is just icing on top of the fun and honor cake. See you when you're back from Kansas.
Deac, I think you misunderstood me, so let me try to clarify. (and forgive me for not learning to quote properly)
"No offense but whatever, blah blah, cry more newb, lolomgwtfpwnzorz or whatever else you want to say. Ya know I was going to be nice and stuff but right now... I think being 'nice' for the sake of 'nice' is the incorrect option." ~Vragak (Part 1 of 2)
You miss out the important part of this. that being....
"Being straightforward is the way best for me right now. I'll say upfront you all rock and this is not a knock on any of you, but I will understand if when I get back from Kansas that i've been booted from #CP#." - Vragak
Being nice for the sake of being nice is skirting around issues instead of just being 100% honest to your feelings. That is what my post is. I am more for keeping on staghelm together than most of you. I say I love being in #CP# in that statement, and it is and will continue to be, FACT.
"Sorry if you get the feeling that the WoW CP are any different than the plaid on CPHL or at gatherings. We all seem about the same to me, with only a few feeling melodramatic at any one time. I think the name CP has made for itself on staghelm is exactly what it should be. People know us as nice guys, quality players, free agents. CP didn't top all the Myth tournaments and we're not gonna be the first to clear Naxx. But we'll be welcome in lots of other guild activities because of the way we handle ourselves." ~Deacon.
When I was at ECG, I saw a large number of people, talking and having fun. When people were left out of stuff, they just said eh I just missed out. If that happens on Staghelm it is a WTF I have been /g'ing all day trying to get a BRD run, then I leave and you all go! Those are two comeplete different mindsets to me. Thus I see 2 CP's.
"The ClanPlaid channel is already up and active for our lost sheep, Garu. " ~Deacon.
AWESOME! Now why is it that I don't (and possibly many others) know about this channel? Right, for it to be a success people need to know about it.
"By all means, anyone who feels CP truly isn't fulfilling your wants should be looking at your options. I doubt anyone will give you a hard time about where you choose to go. My oh-so-humble opinion is that you won't find anything better. " ~Deacon
Motion seconded here. You won't find better than CP. We are raiding if you want to raid. We all know the role of our main class. We all will help you learn the role of others. We'll run with you when we can etc... And quite frankly you will NOT find that in another guild. Trust me... I've tried. Corrupted, Nope. Dues Ex Machina, Nope. IA, H E L L S N O. etc...
My first post was not a flame. How can it not be a flame when you said lets disband though? Think about it. Think about it hard and you to will find the truth hidden there. We all love it here, else we would have left (or left and not come back) we are more family than any other guild on staghelm. We were there for each other. We arethere for each other. We will continue to be there for each other. Reverse psychology, ever hear about it? Rock on my brother... rock on. Tell the guild to break up to break out why the guild should stay together. Is it suicide or is it genius. Well read what you wrote... minus the shots at me... and you provided with the exact result I intended. How about a 10 of 10 for a post that sacrificed the lamb (poster) to the wolves (everyone else), but got the right result.
~Vrag
Footnotes: "...despite more paragraphs than most posts have sentences..." ~Deacon,
Paragraph (n.) 1. A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.
When I start a new thought, I'm gonna start a new paragraph, deal with it. I thought most people enjoyed proper grammar. (No, I am not perfect nor do I think I am at grammar). Thanks for the compliment though, I appreciated it.
Footnotes:
"...despite more paragraphs than most posts have sentences..." ~Deacon,
Paragraph (n.)
1. A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.
When I start a new thought, I'm gonna start a new paragraph, deal with it. I thought most people enjoyed proper grammar. (No, I am not perfect nor do I think I am at grammar). Thanks for the compliment though, I appreciated it.
Holy crap, you totally misinterpretted that comment. I think he was commenting on the lengthyness of your post rather than your quite nice and correct paragraphitude.
Which I enjoy.
As opposed to runningeverythoughttogetherinonebigparagraphforexample.
[quote=Vragak]We are not, and have never been since the day I joined #CP#, a guild that has a ton of people that can get 5 people together consistently for Instances and raids, etc...[/quote] For the last... month, let's say... every night that I can remember there has been at least one 5 man of CP doing whatever people needed done. Either the first thing suggested, or something that multiple people needed. Obviously, there more often than not are [i]some[/i] CP that aren't in this group. Sometimes those people speak up and get swapped in. Sometimes those people need something else and the group does that next. Sometimes what they need has to wait till some other night.
And sometimes people stay quiet, quietly brooding that no one is helping them. Hopefully we've rooted out the last of these people by now. Everyone seems to be ok with asking for some help now, from what I can tell. If anyone still has the impression that CP doesn't get 5-man groups together on a regular basis, they're not playing the same hours I do.
[quote](and forgive me for not learning to quote properly)[/quote] Copy the text in question. put [quote] before it, and put [/quote] after it. If you want to attribute the quote, just do a [quote=Leeroy]At least I have chicken[/quote].
[quote]That is what my post is. I am more for keeping on staghelm together than most of you. I say I love being in #CP# in that statement, and it is and will continue to be, FACT.[/quote] Then I think your post was somewhat risky. People tend to latch onto ideas like this and I think it would be hard to undo the damage if we did disband.
[quote]My first post was not a flame. How can it not be a flame when you said lets disband though? Think about it.[/quote] I didn't really think you were trolling/flaming. But you just seemed so dramatic, what with the "I expect you'll have kicked me from the guild when I get back" that I had to rate its flaminess anyway, in the style of the WoW boards. I thought 3 was even a bit high for a post with the words "no offense" in it.
[quote]Reverse psychology, ever hear about it? Rock on my brother... rock on. Tell the guild to break up to break out why the guild should stay together. Is it suicide or is it genius. Well read what you wrote... minus the shots at me... and you provided with the exact result I intended.[/quote] For someone who reads every post very carefully, you may have gotten the result you intended. For the people who quickly skim because they hate to deal with the ups and downs of forum flamewars, they might only come away with the impression that everybody is upset with how things are and Vrag wants to DISBAND THE GUILD. The lovefest that makes up the rest of your posts can get overshadowed by the caps.
Even garden variety teasing or sarcasm gets lost all the time. I hope you didn't think I was taking real shots at you, for example.
[quote=Chief]Holy crap, you totally misinterpretted that comment. I think he was commenting on the lengthyness of your post rather than your quite nice and correct paragraphitude.[/quote] No, length is perfectly normal... I was in fact poking fun at the one-sentence-paragraph. I don't think it falls under "grammar", and I don't think there are any rules for correct paragraphing. Certainly none that you can expect to hold people to on the internet. But if you can only manage one or two sentences per paragraph you're probably either splitting up points within the same thought across paragraphs or your post changes thoughts too often
As is often the case, I tease because I tend to drift towards prolific paragraphitude myself. I'm with chief, too many is better than too few.
-deac
p.s. holy mother of god, this text is tiny in IE. definitely going to stick with firefox when i'm posting from work...
Comments
I've always said as much despite the fact that I paricipated in them myself (and enjoyed myself I might add), but Carch was correct in many ways when he criticized the nature of raiding. I believe that is why his comments always seemed so much more particularly poignant to me, if not somewhat more biting.
While I readily embraced raiding and I believe I did a sufficient job of it, I've come to a few realizations slowly and steadily along the way: I realized that I've begun spending more and more time away from my wife and my friends, and also from other endeavors both in the video game world and the real world that I enjoyed. I know that I could simply cut time off, but in the end I'd be paying a monthly fee for something I intermittedly used.
In short, I love WoW but I believe I need to quit for now. This is one of the rare times where despite the fact I'm enjoying myself, it could be time best spent invested somewhere else, and all I'm really doing is the same material over and over again (or going to the same places to learn how to beat it so we can grind it later) to get better gear.
The coutnerpoint is, of course, that WoW is about the people, not the place or reward. To this assessment, I concur. I mean, the commeraderie is fantastic! I have great friends and we enjoy each others company immensely, but when you boil it down, it's truly a bunch of friendly-minded people doing the same scenarios over and over again over a significantly long period. This sounds negative, and it is, but please know that I have enjoyed my time raiding. I did not find it unpleasurable, but now I feel it doesn't match the kind of give and take required in order to have it take up a worthwhile portion of my personal time.
I hate leaving, but I know it's the best thing for me in the long run. It is readily apparent, at least for now, that this is what WoW is specifically designed for. Endgame was designed for the exact type of activities that I have described.
There are other concerns as well, items that I have consistently objected to but could find no resolution to, and thus in my mind find no justification to vocalize. In fairness this time I will say them regardless. If most of us did not participate in these events due to choice or time, we would be somewhat exclusded from any kind of regulated mutual interaction. A minor schizm with no resolution in my eyes. I know this to be the case from my past, when the highest level of guild interaction some folks would get would be a smile, a wave from someone powerleveling off in some distant land while others casually played their way through the system up to present day in terms of raiding.
There are many of us who possess the mentality and the ability to embrace endgame readily and easily. To those of you, I concede the simple fact that World of Warcraft is designed correctly for your demographic. Firechief, if anyone is matched well to this kind of schema, it is you. You have the at least superficially-appearing life circumstances to consistently surge forward into endagame with open arms and a full budget of time and affiliated resources at your disposal. If anything, you diserve it, having to concede two previous characters due to server moves just to help fellow #CP# out. By rights, this is your time to take your character as far as she will go and I wish you the best in that endeavor. I respect that. You have a drive unmatched, and a positive attitude to resurrect even the most hopeless of groups in dire circumstances.
However, there a small number who do not possess the time nor perhaps the inclination (i.e. Carch or perhaps Darklord as an example) to continually take on this playstyle. I feel that the way WoW demands people to play is in direct conflict with the very nature of how we originally and quite honestly used to interact with each other. We've become splintered between those who play casually for the sake of enjoying each others company, and those who play in order to obtain a quite bluntly somewhat ever-rising level of perfection through a combination of gear and reputation-grinding with whoever is able to catch up long enough to keep pace.
This sounds like I'm saying we do nothing together, and I apologize for this initial inference. I do not claim this. We do plenty together still but it is executed in a haphhazard style, in between bouts of Battlegrounds and scheduled raids that not everyone can or will participate in.
Is this a valid concern? Yes. Is it fixable? Not yet. Is it fair to criticize? No, honestly it isn't. No one can control the way the game was intentionally designed nor the diverse nature of our lives. However, it is a fact, and it's the elephant in the china shop people would rather step around becuase in essence there's no way to prevent it.
In fact, I do not expect anyone to prevent it in any way. People are having fun, and that's what #CP# is all about. I just know that this is not the way I met you guys originally, nor how I really want things to go any longer for my interpretation of fun. While tense situations and disagreements over these issues have been resolved and taken care of for the most part, people have being hurt and people have been excluded no matter who or what is responsible. To be blunt again, they should never have happened in the first place, regardless of how committed anyone is to any stance, either for or against habitual raiding. I do not expect a state of perfection but I want something better than this. So, coupled with my own personal conflicts and objections, I feel it is time for me to go.
Once I make my final decision, and I technically haven't yet, my account will run out on August 8th. Near then I will post my hiatus information on the Blighted message board as well as to inform them of my hiatus stats. I will remain in contact via e-mail, this board, and hotline as I do not intend to vanish again.
I want to play with Clan Plaid, but I want to it to be an experience that is non-exclusionary. I want it to be an experience that we can all readily embrace and that can satisfy our mutually diverse levels of life-demands and personal dedication. I want to be able to hop on a voice chat, find something out there that we can all participate in, and march forth somewhat more in unison as in days gone by. In the final estimation, I want to be able to play a game that rewards the sacrifices I make not with repetitive motion and a token item celebrated by a select few, but with the knowledge I'm experiencing something special and fun with ALL of my friends, who I respect so very much.
Will we achieve this in the future? I cannot say. Perhaps Burning crusade will assist this wish. Perhaps it won't. But for now, I move on. Maybe I'll see you in Halo 3 as well.
Peace, everyone. I appreciate you all.
I think the situation is not as dire as you make it out to be. You jumped back into the game with both feet, almost immediately became one of the most active raiders, and have now burnt out again. It happens all the time, and I completely agree that spending more time in the Real World is probably an excellent idea. Congratulations on getting back out of the Zone.
I think our current situation on Staghelm is about as good as we could possibly hope for. Nearly everyone has a high level character that can play with the rest of the "mains". Several people have active alts to explore new skills and new areas they may have missed the first time around. The most active of us have Blighted to raid with and pursue the truly 1337 gear and most challenging game content.
It is unreasonable to expect any more than this. No one should feel bad if the entire guild is not in the same place doing the same thing at all times. We have different tastes to start with, our tastes can change dramatically, and the time we have available to play will always be varied. There is a whole virtual world of people we can play with outside of CP if for some reason we can't find an all-CP solution to our current goals. Play with others who enjoy doing what you do, and maybe you'll find the next Garumako or Vragak.
I find the monthly fee trivial compared to what I spend on lunch or a movie. I play as much or as little as I want, and nearly always get to do something enjoyable. Small group content is scheduled to make a comeback soon, and the battlegrounds are getting revamped as well. Raids with Blighted are making good progress and may be moving into BWL soon.
If anything needs to change, it is the way we communicate our preferences to each other. Let's start making better use of the Party Planning board to ask for some group activities. Hell, set up a repeating event in the style of Halo night or Myth night. Wednesday nights, 9 server time, we do some 5-man action. That kind of thing.
But no matter what, stop limiting our focus to what we can do as just CP. I was grinding out the XP on my lock, doing some quests I'd done before and some I hadn't. Wandered into a hunter, and spent the rest of the night doing the same quests in a group of two. It was a hell of a lot more fun. I look forward to doing more group stuff with alts. I think the game has plenty to offer if we treat it as a scenic journey and not a race to tier 3 outfits. The biggest danger is that some of us may forget to spend some of our quality time in the world of humans instead of orcs. I don't mean Alliance instead of Horde.
Ok, not so brief after all. Hooray overtime!
I also don't want to force CP into any mold, sorry to give that impression. My rhetoric is more whimsical than literal. I tried to riddle my post with enouth caveats where I concede we're in a good place despite my own slight objections to prevent that kind of intepretation.
I just didn't want to go without saying something about my reasoning and perspective thus far.
Whatever disagreements we have in terms of where we stand aside, my objections at least in terms of the games aesthetic virtues as they are stand somewhat. It doesn't matter if I power-raided or not, the overall design is the same in execution. I simply don't have the ability to raid without taking time away from people and other activities I care about in the real world. And to be perfectly blunt, one of the fundamental concerns I had was that some do see endgame as a race to tier 3 loot, while others do not. You can paint rainbows and roses all you want, but that is something that will continaully be an obstacle to these organizational reforms you hope to somehow instill here.
But blah blah blah, it's all just noise in the end isn't it? I never said WoW wasn't fun, and you agree with the real world taking prominence, which is the real crux of the matter anyway.
But you do bring up other valid points, and perhaps it would be best for me if I just cut my time down and continud to contribute. Suffice it to say, I'll put some serious thought into staying but a little more moderated level. Maybe a brief weekend reprieve, at the very least, will help me come to a permanent decision.
QQ more noob.
But then I thought better. Executive Summary: You are overanalyzing things. Blackrock itself cannot compare to what you have transformed your molehill into.
I am going to address a couple of the things you said. Don't take this as an attempt at debate, or me nitpicking, I merely want to put forward my feelings and point of view, as I think you have a slightly distorted opinon of me and my motivations.
This is all you really needed to say. If you feel your time needs to be spent somewhere else, then... Shalom! Catch you around. Have fun.
If I have time for recreation, and I enjoy what I do during that time, then I really don't factor anything else into the equation. I'm really not sure what you mean by "give and take". Is the game not giving enough? Are you not taking enough? But you said you enjoyed it??? I'm a tad confused
As for the first part. Well, duh. That's why we played Myth for so long. How many games of For Carnage Apply Within... have I played? Creep? LmotH on Grave?
The first part of your arguement can be applied to all social games -- all games involve some amount of repetition. That's why they have rules and frameworks. It's up to each person to find the games which have the amount of variety they need to be entertained. And hopefully the game will have enough social interaction to take the edge of any excessive repetition.
Some people would say that WoW is too repetitive. Some say it isn't. Some think playing MC every week gets boring. Me, I've only killed Majordomo 3 times, and ragnaros once. Now we're close to that goal again, and although there is ebb and flow, I enjoy the experience as a whole. I'm not bored to death yet.
The thought of "surging forward" by joining a hardcore raiding guild has crossed my mind, but alas I think this is where you have a slightly distorted perception of my gaming time.
Perhaps when winter comes along, and things settle down and I've moved, and the bitter cold prevents forays into the out-of-doors, I'll have more time to really dig in.
Awww... that's sweet of you to say. I don't think it's true as of late. I remember a few recent situations where I'm just too tired/frustrated to carry on. But that's ok. I don't mind taking a page from Carch's playbook, even if I mollify the play a bit.
I think (hope?) this is a bit overstated. There have been times in the past where some where frustrated due to different schedules/priorities/etc. But I think by and large everyone still has a similar mindset... I don't feel a scism, though I recognize that not everyone plays the game for exactly the same reasons.
There are four broad areas of achievement in the game: quests, reputation, pvp, raiding. All of these areas I would like to keep non-exclusionary.
In my view, no one should be barred or discouraged from any of those paths to achievement. There are times when a majority of us aren't participating in those areas. There are times when most of us are concentrating on a particular area. There are times when one of us feels like concentrating on one area. To me, this is fine.
Play and let play. If you can't find people who are on the same page as you, poke the bushes with a stick for a bit. No response? Don't get frustrated. Try later. Unfortunately our guild isn't quite big enough to always find someone who wants to do the same thing you do. When that happens to me, I just find something else to do and realize that though we encourage playing together and finding common ground, we are not obliged to force people to do what we would like to do.
Sometimes I feel unfairly tagged with the ol' "he doesn't give a crap about what we want to do and help us" ... at least I hope unfairly. My perception is that I have helped people who have asked me for it more often than not. But perhaps it is my rose-coloured glasses that are distorted. I do what I can with my limited social skills.
I really don't see how things can be "better". I think/hope feelings have been mended and the issues of the past are behind us.
We could divide into raiding/casual/pvp guild "factions" and split everyone into little groups or three new guilds or whatever, but then our communal experience would be diminished.
I'm sure we can all agree on this.
To be perfectly, 100% clear:
If anyone wants to raid... anyone ... sign up for it. Trust me, what gear you're wearing in a 20/40 man raid of ZG or MC means very little. I've heard some of that excuse -- it simply isn't true. We have an agreement with blighted. Again everyone in #CP# is invited and welcomed to the raids.
If anyone wants to pvp... go ahead. Invite me too, I need an excuse to keep my rank up.
If anyone wants to do a dungeon... invite me. Don't expect me to come Fri/Sat nights before 10pm tho. An unfortunate side effect of raiding is that it has to be scheduled.
If anyone wants to grind crap in Silithus, need help in EPL, do armor upgrade quests or whatever... depending on my time, plans and location in Azeroth there is an 80% chance I'll help you out. Sorry I can't give a 100% guarantee, but to keep my sanity I do need to give myself 20% ME ME ME time.
This is where I think you've made your mountain. I celebrate achievements of everyone in the guild. From BC totally ninja'ing the Felheart Robes in Molten Core, to our first 45 minute pwnzoring of the Baron, to DL getting a second character tantalyzingly close to 60, passing Zans in the process
Of course, the knife cuts both ways. If people take posts of phat lewt in Guild Chat as bragging "rubbing peoples nose" in it and such, what can I do? Personally I make the general rule that if I'm doing something alone without any #CP# I keep achievements to myself "in the moment". If I'm with other #CP# who have helped me to the lofty goal... hellz ya i'll celebrate with Green Text!
I made an exception with Valor Shoulders tho. The frustration was lifted when those things finally dropped for me. :P
I recognize I'm not perfect. There have been times my own selfish motivations have trampled on the feelings of others. I'd like to again apologize for that. I hope I've grown from the experience and won't let it happen again. I won't mention any names lest someone else who's felt slighted thinks worse of me for not mentioning them. I will just say I have TWO particular people in mind, and you know who you are!!!
As to parts where I did mention you, directly or indirectly, thanks for the insight. I stand corrected, though in all honestly you need not defend anything.
I didn't mean to sound so detailed, and for that I apologize.
I don't know of anyone in the guild that feels this way. anyone
Unless it's you??? Is it you Wally??? NOOOOOOO!!!
And as for Deac's remarks... I knew he'd come through! Even though we find different things in the game fun, we have exactly the same mindset. I killed way more electrons than was necessary.
If I am wrong, then so be it. Perhaps a brief time away will clear me out enough to hop back into the swing of things. I'd rather stay than leave fully.
I did not take anything you said a personal gripe in a least. I knew I spent too much time with the details! Doh.
Much of my post was directed in general at the gulid membership. After rereading my post, I recognize portions where I use the pronoun "you" in the general sense, and it wasn't directed particularily at you, Waluin/Marrana. Perhaps that's where the confusion lies. I find the pronoun "one" to be too formal and haughty sounding.
I've noticed that we often have this problem. It's happened in game too ... we seem to talk past each other, completely misinterpreting each other's comments and motivations. In the end we usually can figure it out, though.
(Jocularity alert!) In that spirit, let me say... you're wrong. I wasn't talking about specific loot or events. I haven't the foggiest where you got that idea.
And secondly, how am I supposed to know what you mean or didn't mean to say? The record is there! You clearly said the quoted text! Nyaa! :P
I didn't either. Sorry.
"CP has changed too much. WTF is up with this new room and shit? I feel out of place. Yer all into WoW and stuff? Guess I'm a console-boi now.
FW/Mig"
Well I suppose this takes care of most my concerns regardless. Compromise: I'll take this weekend off to relax and realize I overthink things sometimes. But I can't help but feel some of my concerns about WoW at least, at the very basic level, are valid in terms of how they correlate to 'the real world'.
Anyway, I suppose I needed this dialogue badly, just to figure out where we are and where we're going. With that, I feel a bit more comfortable. Sorry for stirring the pot I guess.
The nature of raiding is inherently exclusive. It is tied to a strict schedule which even I--who often play WoW more hours than most, because I'm disabled--can not adhere. It's very hard for me to make Blighted raids because they are scheduled at the exact same time I'm doing family things. Raids are so time-intensive that no matter how you schedule them, they will exclude some people. It's not that us non-raiders feel we're not part of the raid clique, it's primarily that we can't be available when raids are happening.
Smaller dungeons, non-Alterac PVP, and questing activities can happen at any time, on a whim, and anyone can participate. You can't get 20 or 40 people together without a schedule.
Huh. You could have fooled me. And DL. And sometimes even Vrag has expressed Wally's frustration. It sure as hell looks to us like there are guild members who are more into chasing loot than partying with their fellow guildies.
That's the core of the problem, if you ask me. And I don't see it going away, because it's a fundamental difference in play style.
I have ideas for a solution, but I don't think people would like it much. And now's not the right time to be talking about that anyway.
I wish Wally the best in getting back in touch with the real world. The fact, though, is that every guild I've ever been in--except one hardcore raiding guild I was in for about 2 hours--has this schism. It's omnipresent. I've never seen it handled to the satisfaction of both sides, in any of those dozen or more guilds.
Don't you dare. The pot needs to be stirred. It needs it badly.
By the same token, I have yet to find anything in a raid that is more taxing and challenging play-wise than a 45-minute Baron run.
I think you're totally offbase about the interpretation of that comment though. Methinks you've been reading the "raiders" vs. "casual" debates on the wow forums too much.
This is true, if people can't set aside a block of 4hrs on Wed/Thu/Fri or Sat then they obviously have to exclude themselves from participating. That wasn't the gist of my point though. I have heard people say they'd like to raid, but they need "better gear" first. I wanted to make it clear that the need for gear in the raids we're currently running is nil. Everyone is welcome to raid, we have no gear qualifications. (save for the final boss of MC who we haven't beaten yet).
I raid because I enjoy it, not because I am chasing loot. Yes I admit, I have chased loot in the past through pvp, tier 0.5 upgrade quests, grinding for the carnies, mainly to give myself a goal. I'm not interested in levelling 5 alts. Therefore the only means for advancement is by getting better gear.
This doesn't mean I chase loot as a priority over partying with fellow guildies. I stand by my statement. If there was someone in this guild who had "the race to tier 3 loot" as a priority they would have left the guild long ago and joined a more hardcore raiding guild.
Meh. The schism is artificial in my view. No one will always be on the same page all the time. People will set aside time to do the things they want to do. People will make time to do things with others when the opportunity presents itself. People just have to respect each other, and what they find to be fun.
I find the game most enjoyable when doing challenging things with a group of like-minded friends. There is a continuum of different things people find enjoyable. It's a spectrum. People's preferences, priorities and goals change over time as well.
Setting up artificial barriers and labelling people as "raiders" "non-raiders" "loot horrz" "carebears" etc. is something I hate and it's conterproductive.
Last night I tried hard to get into a CP group, finally elbowed my way (or what felt like elbowing anyway) into a quick BRD arena run which ended in several wipes, which were blamed on me, and which we were unable to recover from because a raid was starting.
All day today, raiding. Not to sound sappy or anything, but I actually had to turn guild chat off because the Onyxia banter was really making me feel left out.
Maybe you're not seeing the "us" vs "them" because you're one of the "us," Chief.
Anyway, between all this, and my inability to accomplish ANY PVP all day today, and the uber lag I've been experiencing on the server again, Staghelm is rapidly becoming unfun again. After I paid $50 to move two of my favorite characters over.
Oh well.
If I get fed up, I'm not going to make some big announcement, I'll just fade away. And I don't want to, because I really enjoy playing with you guys, but like Free said above, it just doesn't seem like the same group to me any more.
That said, what do you expect them to do, not go on raids anymore?
Seems to me an "us vs them" environment would be one in which some CP couldn't go on raids because they weren't geared up or good enough. That's not the case here, all of us are invited to go any time we want. If some of us choose not to raid, how is that the problem of the folks who do?
It's not your problem. It's my problem. I want to be part of a group where I feel like I fit in. In this guild, there isn't enough activity that lines up with my needs. Didn't used to be that way, but it is now.
Another point I was trying to make is that some of the seperateness I'm feeling seems intentional. Chief and others say otherwise, but you know... actions, meet words.
As people progress into the raid content, their play time will become scheduled. The time invested in a raid means they probably will not feel up to doing other stuff immediately before or after the raid. The drive to see some of the payoff from raiding means they will likely join as many raids as they expect to have time for. This means less people around for non-raid stuff. This sucks for people who never raid.
Is the solution to make the raiders feel bad about it? I don't think so. As I've suggested before, maybe you should fight schedules with schedules. A lot of people are around on ____day at __:___ but they're all in a __-man raid. Post a note asking if the day before or day after at the same time would be a good time to do something else:
1) 2-5 man questing day
2) Alt day
3) PVP day
Or schedule something for the same time as a raid so people can opt out of it - there's no penalty for missing raids they never signed up for. People who want to raid can respond with "sorry, i'm really enjoying the fights in _____ and i nearly have the _-piece set bonus". Other people will probably say "yeah we run that damn place every week, let's change it up".
I don't think I will ever enjoy raiding enough to make it more than 50% of my time online, and there are probably lots like me. I'd love to start some scheduled cp pvp sessions. The next patch may make that impossible but it will also prevent you from being locked out like you seem to have been today.
All I can say is if you think you're being singled out, you'll find evidence for it everywhere. Doesn't mean it's true. Tonight when you hopped on I gave you a hail. Turns out you had /g off and turned it back on while i was in the middle of a fight that scrolled the chat log quite a bit so I didn't notice. Next thing I know you're logged off and possibly feeling ignored/persecuted. I hope not. *shrug*
-deac
10:20 - Logged on with Xief. I had a bunch of crafting I wanted to do. Worked on that.
11:00 - 2:00 : Yee wanted to do LBRS. I said sure, but I wanted to take Xief. BC, Grout, Yee and & found a warrior.
2:00-3:00 : Warrior & BC had to go. We found a hunter and a druid to replace, waited for them to arrive, steath through instance, etc.
Sometime after 3:00 - The druid's dad said he was playing too much and had to go. Asked in guild chat if anyone wanted to come. Kalli just logged on, and there was some discussion whether we were going to take the hunter's druid buddy or Kalli. We opted on taking the guildie.
I *think* you may have been logged on to your druid at that time, but it may have been after. I honestly don't remember.
3:00-4:00 Kill Wyrm, do ogre pile thingy.
4:30ish - I'm feeling a bit fatigued, but since everyone is on and I really want to get my Boots o' Heroism, I ask Grout if he wants to try the arena again. We ask in Guild chat if there's any interest. I know for certain you were logged on at this time because you were frustrated about waiting an hour for pvp and made some sarcastic comment about enjoying the ony raid that evening. Mendicant gave a poigniant
Mendicant and Kalli agree to join us for the arena. Garumako logs on. No one else has piped up so i send him a tell. He has no idea what we are talking about, but says it sounds like fun so he comes anyways.
5:00-6:30 - We beat the arena. We decide to carry on and kill incendius for fire resist stuff for garu. And we go to the bar to pick a fight ... I took a short break. Got invited to the Ony Raid at 7:00 pm.
I moved Xief over here for the express reason of doing 5-man dungeons with guildies, since Xetasi doesn't have much more to accomplish in the 5-mans except wresting a helm from that damned Gandling. I'm making every effort to be available. I'm truly sorry you feel the way that you do.
You probably saw in the Guild tab that we were in "Blackrock Spire". You probably assumed we were in UBRS. You believe running 10-man UBRS is "Raiding". (At this point, I will dispense with arguing the technicalities as to why I don't consider 10-man dungeons "raiding".)
Well, as you see in my post, we were in a 5-man party all day. The raiding didn't start until that evening. There ya go. Sorry for arguing that point, I guess it was just an assumption you made rather than an exaggeration. For what it's worth.
I may or may not be doing a good job of expressing myself, becasue I've been hopped up on Percocet all week cos of my ankle problem.
One point that I didn't make, but which is still buggin me is what appears to be the reaction to dissatisfaction. Maybe I'm romanticizing the "good old days" but it seems to me that the general reaction to someone in the group with a problem didn't used to be "What do you expect us to do?" It was more along the lines of "How can we make this right?"
Deacon's shown more of what I would expect, with the suggestion for scheduling, and maybe it's something just that simple. When people are leaving the guild, or just having second thoughts about sticking around, though, seems to me the "for FUN and HONOR" response is not "well, don't let the door hit you on the ass..." or "that's the way it is, suck it up", or "I guess this game just isn't for you."
I would like to nominate Deacon for "best posts in this thread". I'm in 100% agreement with everything he's posted, and he's done a far better job than I. Kudos!
Drama increases over time with every game. I've heard "it's just not the same anymore" one way or another from the myth crowd, halo crowd, diablo II guys, and on and on. I bet Nate is still wondering why the hell more of us don't play Guild Wars. Novelty wears off, the situation does change, and longing for the "glory days" is no more helpful than daydreaming about an old girlfriend. You're probably mis-remembering anyway. I remember in the happiest of myth times there were always people trying to get me to change from creep terries to carnage lmoth (shudder) because we "always play the same thing" and "ffa rules" etc, etc.
I remember being a whiny little turd while I was leveling, or at least wanting to post obscenities into guild chat because no one was helping me, everyone was off doing their own thing, I couldn't get a question answered, omg priests sux.... you name it. I've felt neglected, I've felt the game was repetitive and numbing, I've been pissed at rude people inside and outside the guild. At one point I spent a day off of Staghelm and evaluated whether my time there was worth it. I decided it was, as long as I wasn't forced to grind in any capacity - xp, dkp, honor, or rep.
I am resigned to the fact I will probably never have a piece of tier 3, or warlord equipment. I may hit 300 in cooking or fishing but AD is likely to be the first and last faction I get to exalted. My available time will change dramatically as I move, change jobs, finish school, whatever. I will continue to log on and have fun learning the group roles in WoW and doing a better job of executing them with friends. One day I will cancel my account, and one day after that I will reactivate it. I'm reasonably certain that someone I enjoy playing with now will have cancelled their account within a month. I'm reasonably certain that someone I have not yet met will be a valued play buddy within a month. My strategy is simple. Play means doing what you enjoy. Learn2Play.
-deac
To me, it seems like I'm always running solo. It's been like that since day one. I wanted to get to 60, so I can 'be part of the gang' and run instances and such with you guys. So I get to 60 and it's like......'poof'..... where is everyone?
At the time, there were less people who were active (BC was on tour - Groutous wasn't seen much - Wang was off doing Wang things). Ok - so I finally find the LFG channel, and I start doing PUG's. At first, it really sucked - but I had no choice. This meant that most of the runs I did were with total strangers. That's fine, but I wanted to play with my friends. I thought I might enjoy it more. So I bang out a bunch of quests with PUG's. Somehow, I wind up getting my Onyxia key way before a lot of the west coasters who play together. This made no sense to me, I figured everyone was miles ahead of me! I play by myself, they get together and run instances.
Finding a PUG isn't always easy, nor it is always worth it. So, I make an alt and play with him a bit. I figure to make an enchanter, so he can enchant stuff for my warrior. I'm still not playing much with any CP, so I work on my alt and try advance his professions for my own sake. Next thing I know, I'm over 40 and got my mount. I slow down, play him sporadically - usually just for DE'ing and such.
I'm still not doing much at all with any CP. So I make a mage! Why? To try her at BG's. I work on getting her to about level 12-13 and join WSG. I had fun and found some people who would do it regularly. This is ok for a while, but you can't do PVP all the time.
I'm not sure what to do next. I here Pat talk about stealthing in and doing some stuff solo in instances. I start thinking - "Maybe I should make a rogue - I'm doing stuff solo anyway - why not make the most of it and be able to do engame that way as well?". I make a rogue and work her up to level 19. I choose skinning - since Suxorian needs leather sometimes (and was making things for Kalli at the time).
While this has been going on, I was watching people like Kalli log in and go right to AQ. There were other CP around, but they seemed to be more involved with Sicarri than anything.
I do more PUG's.
Finally, there is starting to be a returning of CP. BC comes off tour - Wang resurfaces - etc. Now I'm thinking "Great! Now we'll finally be able to do stuff!"
What happens? The guys that are now around more wind up jumping on the raid bandwagon. Even Wally comes back from the dead and signs up for daily raids.
Before I start up WoW, I check our forums. I look at CoE and Blighted's raid signup forums. And what do I see? Every raid has like 4 or more CP signed up for every upcoming raid. This is fine, but when would they have time for anything else I wonder? Every time I log in and there are CP on, everyone is in a raid of some kind. This ties them up for like 4 hours at a pop, with not much time before or afterwards for anything else.
So I'm frustrated - there are more guys around - and yet there are none.
I have a 300 skill armorsmith. Honestly, no one cares. I can make stuff - but no one wants it. I can even make fire resist gear, but no one has more than a passing "oh cool" before it's forgotten. I had advanced his skill so he'd hopefully be useful to the guild, but the guild has no use for him.
I work on my alt - advancing his enchanting skills. Thinking he might be more usefull instead. However, there are 2 problems:
1) the guild doesn't use Guildadds.
2) the guild doesn't seem to help itself as a whole.
I play my alt a lot and now I'm at level 59. A good achievement? Maybe - but it's because I have too much time to do things solo.
I can't force anyone to play a certain way. I play to have fun and so does everyone else.
Being in the guild is just a chat channel for me.
I constanly kick around the idea of leaving. I want to be part of something more than myself I suppose.
Since no one seems interested in suggesting a time, I will. Mondays and Wednesdays, 9pm server. From what I remember one of those (mondays?) is a no-go for DL so this could change. I sure haven't seen much of Mori or DL lately, anyway. Post your suggestions here or in the instances forum. A bunch of us sighing about the status quo is no different than an instance run with no puller. Get something started, hmm? It just so happens to be Monday and I'm heading home from work...
-deac
This is true for 3-4 days a week. There's another 3-4 days a week to do non-raiding activities. If people just plan them, I'll try and make it.
I transferred Xief over expressly for that purpose. I played him for 8 hours yesterday doing various dungeons with plaid. It was fun.
I will be needing the following soon (within the next week or two):
Dark Iron Helm
I may want the Leggings and a couple others two. I'll send you what mats I have if you can make them.
Guild Ads was causing me problems. I'll try to install the new version see how it works.
I dunno... I'm just now paying back the money kind people have lent me for Quel, I got 2 dark iron bars from Moridin, made pots for Carch, sent him some Mage tier 0 armor, sent you some felcloth to make me mooncloth i needed (thanks!), did the same with Kzu and Groutous, made kalli some Rejuvenation potions, kalli's given me innumerable enchants, last week some plaid helped me farm for Righteous Orbs (if you need one, i have an extra), Grout and I helped each other kill ogres with EQ healing us... I could go on and on...
I'm not trying to dimish the fact you feel left out. I hope you realize I feel frustrated too.
Carch put it best when he said "How can we make this right?" and "What do you expect us to do?" I feel both sentiments, honestly. Both sides of the same coin.
All I can ask is that if you want to be a part of something, please plan something and invite me to come. I'll be happy to attend. I'll do the same when Xief needs a tank for scholo.
WoW is about X, Y, or Z <----> Sorry, wrong. WoW is a game. Games are for fun. WoW is for U, and U stands for whatever it is that makes WoW fun for you (U)
Maybe you'll find the next Vragak or Garumako <----> Pfft, no. We are too cool to find suitable equals... you will only find slightly lesser versions of us.
WoW is too expensive. <----> Compared. $13 = WoW for a month. $9 for a movie theatre 2 hours movie. $4.50 an hour, 3 hours of WoW a month WoW = $4.33 an hour. Figure other things out for yourself.
No offense but whatever, blah blah, cry more newb, lolomgwtfpwnzorz or whatever else you want to say. Ya know I was going to be nice and stuff but right now... I think being 'nice' for the sake of 'nice' is the incorrect option. Being straightforward is the way best for me right now. I'll say upfront you all rock and this is not a knock on any of you, but I will understand if when I get back from Kansas that i've been booted from #CP#.
Let me first state that I play WoW for one reason, and one reason only. I Enjoy Playing WoW. I stay in #CP# at Staghelm because I enjoy chatting with you all in guild. You are all great to do things with, etc... Do I always help you all, no... no I don't. I have my own things I want to do. I will a lot of the time ask if I can help with something if I am not with plans. I drop my personal things for guild things. But in the end of it... I play because ** I ** find it enjoyable. I don't let it kill my (admittedly small) social life or other things.
I have /gquit more than the rest of you combined. Why? Because of in /g frustrations that I exhaled badly. Most of those times I jumped onto another guild very quickly becuase I had friends in them. I am not saying that #CP# is broken, far from it. #CP# from what I was told is not a typical raiding guild. It was a way for a group of friends to converse and converse in a way to say WE ARE #CP# with a guild tag. We could chat in green text and pick it out easier.
Quite franky, I'm sick and tired of the Xetasi & Kalli are raid and loot whores. Wally is a crybaby who jumped into the deepend instead of wading slowly out to sea. DL & Carch are Raid Haters. Vragak is a confused flip-floper who know one gets and is the FNG of #CP#. Mukow is the sleep-walking Raid Wiper. BC is the summoner whore. Mori is the guy who ninja'd Xet's epic from Drakk. etc. . .
You want my idea for a solution... here it is. And feel free to hate on me as long as you want. I won't be /gquit 'ing. I won't skirt conversations with you if you want an explanation. The solution as propsed by Vragak...
DISBAND THE GUILD.
omgwtfpwnzlazorfishspewpew... did he just say Disband the guild? Yes I did. We are not, and have never been since the day I joined #CP#, a guild that has a ton of people that can get 5 people together consistently for Instances and raids, etc...
We could function as much as #CP# as we are right now by simply disbanding and then doing a "/join ClanPlaid" Yup it is harder to see who is on because there is no social tab... but there is that /xxxxx command (i forget what it is) that tell you who is on.
The #CP# instance day has been tried and failed before, by myself an Garumako.
I joined #CP# because of Mukow. I then learned that #CP# truly did stand for the motto I was told 'For Fun and Honor' All of you play to have fun no matter how you do it. All of you respect everyone else and compromise and talk about it instead of /ignore and F-Offs. Admittedly human emotions come into play more sometimes but in the end it is still #CP#. I then goto a gathering, an ECG this is where I see how true the motto and all that is.
No offense to #CP# or anyone... but the tag on Staghelm is not the #CP#(V,J,...) that I know you all as. The ones I see in CPHL, or saw at gatherings are what Clan Plaid is.
We have Ventrilo. We have a possible "/join ClanPlaid" channel in WoW. We do not need as a guild to be Clan Plaid. Quite frankly as a guild in staghelm has made it's name. But it has made it through individual actions, not guild efforts.
If people want to go to CoE or Blighted or wherever let them.
Right now, as a guild on staghelm is not able to fulfill the wants of all of the #CP#'ers that play on it. So why keep the pretense... go out and find your fun in WoW. #CP# will still be here on CPHL, Ventrilo, Gizmo, /join ClanPlaid, ECG, WCG, MCG etc...
~Vragak, #CP#
3/10 - poor flame. the feeling is there, it's clear you think you're pushing people's buttons. but despite more paragraphs than most posts have sentences, logic and compassion drag this post way down on the flame-o-meter.
I don't think you're the first to think of this, and possibly not the first to suggest it openly. Not much difference between this and being "absorbed" by another guild. Problem is, this board is the only thing angsty about CP as it stands. In azeroth, every night seems to be fun for the vast majority of the people who show up. Alts are making a big comeback, and there's lots of cooperation to finish quest goals for said alts. Raiders have made tons of progress with our new three-way alliance (too much progress?) and I still see people in BGs in between everything else. There are no problems that disbanding would solve.
Sorry if you get the feeling that the WoW CP are any different than the plaid on CPHL or at gatherings. We all seem about the same to me, with only a few feeling melodramatic at any one time. I think the name CP has made for itself on staghelm is exactly what it should be. People know us as nice guys, quality players, free agents. CP didn't top all the Myth tournaments and we're not gonna be the first to clear Naxx. But we'll be welcome in lots of other guild activities because of the way we handle ourselves.
The ClanPlaid channel is already up and active for our lost sheep, Garu. He's having a blast with the hardcore raiding but still comes to us when he needs a break. He had to "leave" because that's a requirement to run with Reawaken. If anyone else wants to follow in his footsteps I don't think there will be any hard feelings. But the vast majority of us are too casual to get into any other guild that does something CP can't. The social tab lets us see instantly everyone's class, level, and a short note. We can see the exact spelling of the toon names even when they're offline. The names are auto-completed when sending mail. There are lots of good reasons that the status quo is not just "good enough" but the best solution for plaiddies enjoying WoW.
[quote]Right now, as a guild on staghelm is not able to fulfill the wants of all of the #CP#'ers that play on it. So why keep the pretense... go out and find your fun in WoW. #CP# will still be here on CPHL, Ventrilo, Gizmo, /join ClanPlaid, ECG, WCG, MCG etc...[/quote]
By all means, anyone who feels CP truly isn't fulfilling your wants should be looking at your options. I doubt anyone will give you a hard time about where you choose to go. My oh-so-humble opinion is that you won't find anything better. Lots of guilds start with people who need each other to achieve something in game, and build comeraderie through bigger and bigger achievements as a group. When the landmark achievements slow, there's nothing to stop the personality conflicts from scattering the members to the next big thing. CP has always been about people of quality who may or may not have similar goals but do enjoy helping each other out. Anything we manage to pull off as a group is just icing on top of the fun and honor cake. See you when you're back from Kansas.
-deac
"No offense but whatever, blah blah, cry more newb, lolomgwtfpwnzorz or whatever else you want to say. Ya know I was going to be nice and stuff but right now... I think being 'nice' for the sake of 'nice' is the incorrect option." ~Vragak (Part 1 of 2)
You miss out the important part of this. that being....
"Being straightforward is the way best for me right now. I'll say upfront you all rock and this is not a knock on any of you, but I will understand if when I get back from Kansas that i've been booted from #CP#." - Vragak
Being nice for the sake of being nice is skirting around issues instead of just being 100% honest to your feelings. That is what my post is. I am more for keeping on staghelm together than most of you. I say I love being in #CP# in that statement, and it is and will continue to be, FACT.
"Sorry if you get the feeling that the WoW CP are any different than the plaid on CPHL or at gatherings. We all seem about the same to me, with only a few feeling melodramatic at any one time. I think the name CP has made for itself on staghelm is exactly what it should be. People know us as nice guys, quality players, free agents. CP didn't top all the Myth tournaments and we're not gonna be the first to clear Naxx. But we'll be welcome in lots of other guild activities because of the way we handle ourselves." ~Deacon.
When I was at ECG, I saw a large number of people, talking and having fun. When people were left out of stuff, they just said eh I just missed out. If that happens on Staghelm it is a WTF I have been /g'ing all day trying to get a BRD run, then I leave and you all go! Those are two comeplete different mindsets to me. Thus I see 2 CP's.
"The ClanPlaid channel is already up and active for our lost sheep, Garu. " ~Deacon.
AWESOME! Now why is it that I don't (and possibly many others) know about this channel? Right, for it to be a success people need to know about it.
"By all means, anyone who feels CP truly isn't fulfilling your wants should be looking at your options. I doubt anyone will give you a hard time about where you choose to go. My oh-so-humble opinion is that you won't find anything better. " ~Deacon
Motion seconded here. You won't find better than CP. We are raiding if you want to raid. We all know the role of our main class. We all will help you learn the role of others. We'll run with you when we can etc... And quite frankly you will NOT find that in another guild. Trust me... I've tried. Corrupted, Nope. Dues Ex Machina, Nope. IA, H E L L S N O. etc...
My first post was not a flame. How can it not be a flame when you said lets disband though? Think about it. Think about it hard and you to will find the truth hidden there. We all love it here, else we would have left (or left and not come back) we are more family than any other guild on staghelm. We were there for each other. We arethere for each other. We will continue to be there for each other. Reverse psychology, ever hear about it? Rock on my brother... rock on. Tell the guild to break up to break out why the guild should stay together. Is it suicide or is it genius. Well read what you wrote... minus the shots at me... and you provided with the exact result I intended. How about a 10 of 10 for a post that sacrificed the lamb (poster) to the wolves (everyone else), but got the right result.
~Vrag
Footnotes:
"...despite more paragraphs than most posts have sentences..." ~Deacon,
Paragraph (n.)
1. A distinct division of written or printed matter that begins on a new, usually indented line, consists of one or more sentences, and typically deals with a single thought or topic or quotes one speaker's continuous words.
When I start a new thought, I'm gonna start a new paragraph, deal with it. I thought most people enjoyed proper grammar. (No, I am not perfect nor do I think I am at grammar). Thanks for the compliment though, I appreciated it.
Which I enjoy.
As opposed to runningeverythoughttogetherinonebigparagraphforexample.
For the last... month, let's say... every night that I can remember there has been at least one 5 man of CP doing whatever people needed done. Either the first thing suggested, or something that multiple people needed. Obviously, there more often than not are [i]some[/i] CP that aren't in this group. Sometimes those people speak up and get swapped in. Sometimes those people need something else and the group does that next. Sometimes what they need has to wait till some other night.
And sometimes people stay quiet, quietly brooding that no one is helping them. Hopefully we've rooted out the last of these people by now. Everyone seems to be ok with asking for some help now, from what I can tell. If anyone still has the impression that CP doesn't get 5-man groups together on a regular basis, they're not playing the same hours I do.
[quote](and forgive me for not learning to quote properly)[/quote]
Copy the text in question. put [quote] before it, and put [/quote] after it. If you want to attribute the quote, just do a [quote=Leeroy]At least I have chicken[/quote].
[quote]That is what my post is. I am more for keeping on staghelm together than most of you. I say I love being in #CP# in that statement, and it is and will continue to be, FACT.[/quote]
Then I think your post was somewhat risky. People tend to latch onto ideas like this and I think it would be hard to undo the damage if we did disband.
[quote]My first post was not a flame. How can it not be a flame when you said lets disband though? Think about it.[/quote]
I didn't really think you were trolling/flaming. But you just seemed so dramatic, what with the "I expect you'll have kicked me from the guild when I get back" that I had to rate its flaminess anyway, in the style of the WoW boards. I thought 3 was even a bit high for a post with the words "no offense" in it.
[quote]Reverse psychology, ever hear about it? Rock on my brother... rock on. Tell the guild to break up to break out why the guild should stay together. Is it suicide or is it genius. Well read what you wrote... minus the shots at me... and you provided with the exact result I intended.[/quote]
For someone who reads every post very carefully, you may have gotten the result you intended. For the people who quickly skim because they hate to deal with the ups and downs of forum flamewars, they might only come away with the impression that everybody is upset with how things are and Vrag wants to DISBAND THE GUILD. The lovefest that makes up the rest of your posts can get overshadowed by the caps.
Even garden variety teasing or sarcasm gets lost all the time. I hope you didn't think I was taking real shots at you, for example.
[quote=Chief]Holy crap, you totally misinterpretted that comment. I think he was commenting on the lengthyness of your post rather than your quite nice and correct paragraphitude.[/quote]
No, length is perfectly normal... I was in fact poking fun at the one-sentence-paragraph. I don't think it falls under "grammar", and I don't think there are any rules for correct paragraphing. Certainly none that you can expect to hold people to on the internet. But if you can only manage one or two sentences per paragraph you're probably either splitting up points within the same thought across paragraphs or your post changes thoughts too often
As is often the case, I tease because I tend to drift towards prolific paragraphitude myself. I'm with chief, too many is better than too few.
-deac
p.s. holy mother of god, this text is tiny in IE. definitely going to stick with firefox when i'm posting from work...